tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post7090405440312636210..comments2023-04-15T09:45:24.185-05:00Comments on Millenarian Iconoclasm: Abiogenesis, Part IDark Starhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-51032470022918895662016-12-24T07:55:01.624-06:002016-12-24T07:55:01.624-06:00http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161026-the-secret...http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161026-the-secret-of-how-life-on-earth-began<br /><br />Good review of current thinking.Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-32323919901656804572016-06-25T18:29:08.009-05:002016-06-25T18:29:08.009-05:00Another breakthrough in RNA research: http://m.pna...Another breakthrough in RNA research: http://m.pnas.org/content/112/24/7489.abstract?sid=47dd92bd-0184-4f41-b543-7e6060476ad9Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-6235377976661853532015-10-13T15:13:01.986-05:002015-10-13T15:13:01.986-05:00Here is a creationists take in a PhD dissertation ...Here is a creationists take in a PhD dissertation http://digital.library.sbts.edu:8080/handle/10392/4613<br /><br />Despite the 'Focus' statement saying "It will begin with a brief survey of the related science at large" and being written in 2014 not a SINGLE reference to Szostak, Sutherland, Ghadiri, or really any other current abiogenesis researcher. Embarrassing. That he bases these arguments on popular books doubly so.<br /><br />He also seems to think we believe this is a completely solved problem he basically asks (paraphrasing)"why does Dawkins keep exploring different paradigms in his popular books"?<br /><br />Let's be VERY clear, there is NO scientific consensus on the exact pathways or plausible chemical pathways for abiogenesis at this time - what we do have are a LOT of plausible & demonstrated chemical pathways for specific segments of the question and some unknowns that are still being researched and then we would still need an overarching Theory or 10 to tie it all together and then a VERY long process of eliminating a bunch of the possibilities to narrow it down. But we have overcome enough of the previous objections like "you CANNOT have natural synthesis of Ribose! Period!" that it is now more reasonable to assume the remainder will be found -- indeed some of the most challenging objections have already been answered.<br /><br />And none of this relies on local extraterrestrial life to exist to bolster the arguments as this paper seems to try to suggest. Sure, biological life on another planet/moon would be very useful to aiding our understanding but it doesn't resolve the question by itself (though it might point us in different directions depending on how similar that life is to that on Earth).<br /><br />"The basis of this study, though viewed under the lens of theistic science, has honestly looked at the state of the evidence as cited by Dawkins and as depicted by its scholars."<br /><br />Um no, it didn't. Not even close - inexcusably far away from that actually.<br /><br />"In any case, what really matters is the acceptance and/or recognition of the best<br />explanation. If intelligent design can explain the complexity of DNA over and above any<br />current (i.e., naturalistic) solution, then why should it be ignored as a viable model?"<br /><br />Because while "God made it that way" can *account* for ANY POSSIBLE FACT - it explains NONE of them. Invisible Pink Unicorns that Fart Universes into existence has the EXACT SAME explanatory power as "Christian God" - why do we have rainbows? - DUH, Unicorns. When is genocide ok? When God commands it - so we should feel sorry for the Israelite soliders who had to murder all those women & infants of the Seven Nations and NOT those whom they mass slaughtered, <a href="http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites" rel="nofollow">As William Lane Craig argues.</a><br /><br />Whereas the 1000's of pages of published research in this area actually expand our knowledge of prebiotic chemistry, how & where organic molecules arise, how they fit together, certain necessary features for biological reproduction, and so forth. Goddidit does absolutely nothing for you.<br /><br />"How far, we might ask, can a thermodynamically open system defy entropy?"<br /><br />Life doesn't DEFY entropy at all. This is an absurdly ignorant statement in a PhD dissertation. Thermodynamics 101 level error -- actually I would say most semi-educated high school students can get this one right but here it is.<br /><br />Oh wait, what is this PhD for? Is it biology? Is it organic chemistry? Physics?<br /><br />Nope, it's for a Doctor of Philosophy. In which we demonstrate that Dawkins doesn't know for sure that which Dawkins doesn't claim to know for sure about - doesn't even claim it's a solid hypothesis that can be falsified yet - certainly doesn't claim it's an accepted scientific Theory.<br /><br />Do I qualify for one of these now or do you have to bloviate for 300 pages to get one? I think I only managed about 1 page...Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-51571227235057127542015-10-13T14:11:33.199-05:002015-10-13T14:11:33.199-05:00Evidence from Meteorites for Multiple Possible Ami...<a href="http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20150009495" rel="nofollow">Evidence from Meteorites for Multiple Possible Amino Acid Alphabets for the Origins of Life</a> (NASA Technical Report) - (2015)<br /><br />Larson, Brian, "<a href="http://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2704&context=open_access_etds" rel="nofollow">Interpretation of chemical environments by RNA and the implications to the origins of life</a>" (2014). Dissertations and Theses. Paper 1705.Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-80494447920390344702015-10-13T11:36:36.128-05:002015-10-13T11:36:36.128-05:00Chemists report today that a pair of simple compou...Chemists report today that a pair of simple compounds, which would have been abundant on early Earth, can give rise to a network of simple reactions that produce the three major classes of biomolecules—nucleic acids, amino acids, and lipids—needed for the earliest form of life to get its start.<br /><br />http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/03/researchers-may-have-solved-origin-life-conundrum<br /><br />Based on:<br /><br />John Sutherland - <a href="http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/v7/n4/full/nchem.2202.html" rel="nofollow">Common origins of RNA, protein and lipid precursors in a cyanosulfidic protometabolism</a> (doi:10.1038/nchem.2202) 2015<br /><br />Thanks to @CarltonWhitfie8 for the linkDark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-19276506689472303082014-01-08T16:51:09.160-06:002014-01-08T16:51:09.160-06:00triaminopyrimidine and cyanuric acid act as cataly...<a href="http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2014/01/origin-of-life-new-leap-forward-understanding-the-spontaneous-formation-of-rna-on-early-earth.html" rel="nofollow">triaminopyrimidine and cyanuric acid act as catalyst for RNA polymerization in 'drying pond' simulation</a>Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-21835515990013454642013-05-10T15:11:31.736-05:002013-05-10T15:11:31.736-05:00Abiotic Self-Replication<a href="http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ar200325v" rel="nofollow">Abiotic Self-Replication</a>Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-29930856388790887082013-04-12T12:32:07.644-05:002013-04-12T12:32:07.644-05:00Possible evidence of a protein-first development, ...Possible evidence of a protein-first development, using just 10 amino acids believed to exist on Earth around 4 billion years ago:<br /><br /><a href="http://phys.org/news/2013-04-clues-life.html" rel="nofollow">Origins of life? Discovery could help explain how first organisms emerged on Earth</a>Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-84929245154321263812013-03-05T13:29:09.061-06:002013-03-05T13:29:09.061-06:00More on complex organic molecules forming in comet...More on complex organic molecules forming in comets: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130305131412.htm<br /><br />In an ultra-high vacuum chamber chilled to 10 degrees above absolute zero (10 Kelvin), Seol Kim and Ralf Kaiser of the Hawaiian team simulated an icy snowball in space including carbon dioxide, ammonia and various hydrocarbons such as methane, ethane and propane. When zapped with high-energy electrons to simulate the cosmic rays in space, the chemicals reacted to form complex, organic compounds, specifically dipeptides, essential to life.Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-6556708811010726292012-10-03T16:34:17.428-05:002012-10-03T16:34:17.428-05:00Via @Matt_Dillahunty
Simple reaction makes the bui...Via @Matt_Dillahunty<br /><a href="http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/10/simple-reaction-makes-the-building-blocks-of-a-nucleic-acid/" rel="nofollow">Simple reaction makes the building blocks of a nucleic acid</a> [Ars Technica]<br />Nature Chemistry, 2012. DOI: 10.1038/NCHEM.1467 "<a href="http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nchem.1467.html" rel="nofollow">Prebiotic synthesis of simple sugars by photoredox systems chemistry</a>"Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-34027930791526174032012-02-11T14:43:00.787-06:002012-02-11T14:43:00.787-06:00Ribonucleotides: β-ribonucleosides, Sutherland<a href="http://cshperspectives.com/content/2/4/a005439.full" rel="nofollow">Ribonucleotides: β-ribonucleosides</a>, SutherlandDark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-57102767144537371272012-02-11T14:41:35.334-06:002012-02-11T14:41:35.334-06:00Origin of Life: Generating RNA Molecules in Water
...<a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091120124829.htm" rel="nofollow">Origin of Life: Generating RNA Molecules in Water</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110809144517.htm" rel="nofollow">Study Builds On Plausible Scenario for Origin of Life On Earth</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120124092930.htm" rel="nofollow">Scientists Discover New Clue to Chemical Origins of Life</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071002113036.htm" rel="nofollow">Could Adenine From Interstellar Dust Have Triggered Life On Earth? Elsewhere?</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071030114051.htm" rel="nofollow">How Did Chemical Constituents Essential To Life Arise On Primitive Earth?</a>Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-21409096293181350932012-02-11T12:52:27.955-06:002012-02-11T12:52:27.955-06:00SpringerLink Origins Of Life journal.SpringerLink <a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/0169-6149/" rel="nofollow"><i>Origins Of Life</i></a> journal.Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-31519046237091155212011-08-31T10:31:51.740-05:002011-08-31T10:31:51.740-05:00Only ~12% of bacterial genome essential for comple...<a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110830092356.htm" rel="nofollow">Only ~12% of bacterial genome essential for complex bacterial life</a>Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-62753662019174003522011-08-30T16:57:46.062-05:002011-08-30T16:57:46.062-05:00Talk.Origins: Abiogenesis FAQ<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/" rel="nofollow">Talk.Origins: Abiogenesis FAQ</a>Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-53984441887247456552011-08-30T16:55:37.313-05:002011-08-30T16:55:37.313-05:00Modern Origin of Life references<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/modorlife.html" rel="nofollow">Modern Origin of Life references</a>Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-57226025756615173512011-08-21T17:25:24.074-05:002011-08-21T17:25:24.074-05:00Biologists' Discovery May Force Revision of Bi...Biologists' Discovery May Force Revision of Biology Textbooks: Novel Chromatin Particle Halfway Between DNA and a Nucleosome<br /><br />http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110818142842.htmDark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-32706751821254634192011-08-16T13:49:46.984-05:002011-08-16T13:49:46.984-05:00Another keen bit of research addressing the prepon...Another keen bit of research addressing the preponderance of molecules with left-handed chirality.<br /><br />Summary:<br />http://www.lousycanuck.ca/2011/08/15/abiogenesis-chirality-and-narrowing-down-the-alternatives/<br /><br />ScienceDaily:<br />'Ancestral Eve' Crystal May Explain Origin of Life's Left-Handedness<br />http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100421121501.htm<br /><br />Study Builds On Plausible Scenario for Origin of Life On Earth<br />http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110809144517.htm<br /><br /><br />Citations:<br />Tu Lee, Yu Kun Lin. The Origin of Life and the Crystallization of Aspartic Acid in Water. Crystal Growth & Design, 2010; 10 (4): 1652 DOI: 10.1021/cg901219f<br /><br />Jason E. Hein, Eric Tse, Donna G. Blackmond. A route to enantiopure RNA precursors from nearly racemic starting materials. Nature Chemistry, 2011; DOI: 10.1038/NCHEM.1108Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-55518671132315631762011-08-08T20:26:39.783-05:002011-08-08T20:26:39.783-05:00More evidence that much of organic chemistry origi...More evidence that much of organic chemistry originated in Space and collected here on Earth.<br /><br />These are especially important findings due to the DNA nucleobases and analogs that are found along with the chemical processes that yield them.<br /><br />"In the lab, an identical suite of nucleobases and nucleobase analogs were generated in non-biological chemical reactions containing hydrogen cyanide, ammonia, and water. This provides a plausible mechanism for their synthesis in the asteroid parent bodies, and supports the notion that they are extraterrestrial," says Callahan.<br /><br />If these findings are confirmed by other labs this will be huge.<br /><br />http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/dna-meteorites.html<br />http://www.space.com/12578-evidence-space-created-dna.html<br />http://richarddawkins.net/articles/642503-building-blocks-of-dna-found-in-meteorites-from-space<br />http://www.space.com/12569-meteorites-dna-building-blocks-discovery.htmlDark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-54763356918292915062011-06-06T09:21:54.084-05:002011-06-06T09:21:54.084-05:00i think it's a great job.
My recommendation f...i think it's a great job.<br /><br />My recommendation for part 2:<br />Since it's addressing creationists' critiques of abiogenesis, perhaps highlight this idea: <br /><br />"If creationists want to prove that abiogenesis is impossible then [they] only need to find some specific STEP that absolutely cannot have happened naturally. Not a fallacious statistical argument saying that it's just too improbable to believe. An actual chemical combination that cannot possibly happen in nature and the specific, scientific reasons why."<br /><br />and highlight the root of what is req'd of abiogenesis research ==> proteins from "the soup." In much the same way that the DNA evidence is enough to *prove* Evolution, and we don't NEED the fossil record (fossil record is *extra* evidence) likewise, we don't NEED a complete replicating system comparable to DNA to demonstrate the plausibility of an abiogenesis model. Creating the proteins is sufficient (wow, more than sufficient really when you think about how wonderful that really is), the rest is just filling in details.<br /><br />You mention it early on, but I'd really hammer that in since these particulars are what the creationists often attack.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-39512591859816526442011-06-06T08:37:00.124-05:002011-06-06T08:37:00.124-05:00A very good summary! I hadn't thought of prion...A very good summary! I hadn't thought of prions in the context of this debate; it's pretty compelling stuff when you consider it.<br /><br />Quoted for Truth:<br />"they are just questions and there is absolutely no indication that any of these problems are intractable"<br /><br />This has always been a big thing for me. The religious so often seem to suggest that because we don't have all the answers there must be a god. The fact that we don't know everything yet doesn't mean that we never will, and to argue otherwise is silly and stifles our intellectual growth as a species.Parsley Victorioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04622223789593927770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-41872779697473865132011-04-08T23:16:28.802-05:002011-04-08T23:16:28.802-05:00Thanks, I really appreciate the feedback. I would...Thanks, I really appreciate the feedback. I would be curious to hear more on your ideas about how we can help religious people better understand or accept science. I created an entry to discuss this topic: http://iconoclasm2000.blogspot.com/2011/04/discuss-how-we-can-help-religious.html<br /><br />I grew up going to Church so I do feel sympathy for and have some understanding of the difficulties such people face. But, unfortunately, my personal experience doesn't really give me any insight on how to help others.<br /><br />For myself, it was based on a hunger for truth and knowledge and INCLUDED a thorough reading of the Bible itself -- and I don't know how to "give" that hunger to others except by showing some of the amazing things that science has revealed to us.Dark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-2876324100517571182011-04-08T22:37:58.146-05:002011-04-08T22:37:58.146-05:00I did not get through all of what you have written...I did not get through all of what you have written but I am very happy that you have backed up all of your information and I like all that you have to say. I am going into psychology and desiring to link it with physics and nature among other things. I understand the desire to show that what some believe in god could not possibly be true but unfortuantely many people have grown with these beliefs and without their beliefs they may feel naked or vulnerable. I would just like to say that there are many parallels that can be found to help people find the symbolic nature of religion and how it relates to evolution. Through this subtlety people can alow themselves to absorb the information rather than passing it off because they feel threatened. And that is all... I like what you have to say and will be reading more. Thanks for sharing.Zeezle22noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-49273283095558736532011-04-08T11:00:19.891-05:002011-04-08T11:00:19.891-05:00Ribozyme-Catalyzed Transcription of an Active Ribo...Ribozyme-Catalyzed Transcription of an Active Ribozyme, the story of: tC19Z<br /><br />http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2011/04/rna-enzyme-makes-another-rna-e.html<br /><br />http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6026/209.abstract<br /><br /><br />Related: Climbing in 190 Dimensions<br /><br />http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6026/181.fullDark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5143444398686195516.post-67765450978244626492011-03-29T22:20:59.699-05:002011-03-29T22:20:59.699-05:00Meet the primitive plant pathogen "hammerhead...Meet the primitive plant pathogen "hammerhead viroid"<br /><br />Wired: Popular article:<br />http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/mutationrecord/<br /><br />Extremely High Mutation Rate of a Hammerhead Viroid<br />http://www.sciencemag.org/content/323/5919/1308.abstract<br /><br />See Also:<br />Viral Mutation Rates<br />Closing the Circle: Replicating RNA with RNA<br />Measurements of spontaneous rates of mutations in the recent past and the near future<br />Colloquium Paper: The comparative genomics of viral emergence<br /><br />A kissing-loop interaction in a hammerhead viroid RNA<br />critical for its in vitro folding and in vivo viability<br />http://www.uv.es/pena/papers/Gago%20et%20al.,%20RNA%202005.pdf<br /><br />Viroid Master List:<br />http://nt.ars-grin.gov/subviral/viroids.html<br /><br />Google Book: Viroids<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=6wVtRfI0V8UC&lpg=PA227&ots=MxO4dmeNLJ&dq=hammerhead%20viroid&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=hammerhead%20viroid&f=falseDark Starhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356850749159919331noreply@blogger.com